I personally hate and disdain all ctf maps.


Why do we have these maps in the server? Ctf maps bring nothing but a spam fest of turtling in a clustered environment. I understand Cp and PL maps, even Goldrush...., but Ctf maps? It's ridiculous. There's essentially three things a player can do in these maps. Kill enemy players, attack fruitlessly, or defend in boredom.

Mach4
To small to handle 32 player and in the end, it tends to be covered by 4 to 5 sentries. Attackers find it difficult to take the intel with all the enemies pretty much defending the intel. Defenders can't even reach far outside there base because of the sheer numbers of enemies outside. Four against one? Fun much?

At least Mach4 has the benifit that the intel does not have to travel far to reach the outside world.

Turbine
A slightly larger version of Mach4. The better team controls the middle spot while the other team suffers to being fixed on defending. Usually the defending team has more then one sentry meaning much more effort for the offense. Again, defenders are pretty screwed when they decide to reach the middle grounds. Essentially, there's only one way to the intel and thats to the left open space. The right entrance, near spawn, well, it's no mans land. The vents are no good either. Because of this, much of the fighting and turtling occurs in the only pathway. Even if the intel is carried out side the intel roof, there's still a possibility of it never reaching the middle ground.

2Fort
Predominately filled with snipers that are bound to injure you when you attempt to land the ground. Reaching the intel is near impossible just because of the sheer number of people "Defending" and sentries in that area. With the vast amount of defense in 2fort, more then one uber is required and coordination would be very well necessary. Even if a player managed to grab the intel, there's way to much distance and effort needed to escort the intel. Chances are if the intel is still in the enemy base, YOURE NOT GETTING IT. 2Fort doesnt provide much area for just 'killing' people either. The middle ground is just a bridge, a narrow bridge.

Much of the combat usually happens in one or another base.

25 minutes of trying to cap one intel or another and what usually happens is a stalemate. 25 minutes of the same area is just boring.

As much as I hate Ctf maps, I understand keeping the other Ctf maps but at least do something of 2fort. Why the map remains popular is just a mystery. Remove it, shorten the time spam, something. It's an awful map, even in regular settings.

Also, for those who like ctf maps in this condition, tell me why. Enlighten me.

I like em.
The reason? I find them fun. I enjoy the time I play on those maps a lot. I don't hate it. Don't really have anything else to say about that. Sure, I could take time to dissect the technicalities of "why do I enjoy ____ map?", or I could be enjoying my off-time. Not like I need to know the reason why I enjoy something to enjoy it.

Sure, I've played ctf games that sucked dick. But I don't think there isn't a game type or map that I haven't played that sucked dick at least once.


I don't seem have any of the problems you complain about. I've played games where one team is always on offense and the other is on defense, but that always seems to happen with imbalanced teams, something which I also encounter in all other game types (and effect the game-play equally so).
But really, short of that happening from time to time, everything else you mentioned never occurs anywhere near enough for it to be an issue to or for me to make much notice of it.
I can't think of a single ctf game in the last two months that had anything beyond simple one-sided team balance.

And I guess that's really why I like ctf games.

You apparently have a shitty time on them. I apparently have a blast on them.
Our differences on this matter are thus defined.


I'm sorry they're not as much fun for you.

I find ctf incredibly boring as well. I mean they can be fun to fuck around on (battle engie) but that quickly wares off. Most of the time your just half assedly running towards the other side shooting. I like to be challenged with control points or payloads.

CTF suffers more from the "stalemate effect" of instant-spawn than any other mode, I agree. In fact, I think that most of the points made here are valid; however, for me, the good outweighs the bad.

Mach 4, to start, has a ridiculous choke; you can't grab the intel from any direction without enemies spawning right on top of you. This is especially true when the server is full. However, it's a good map for when the server is not full. Switching to Mach4 when the server population gets low is a pretty good way to save the server from emptying. Sometimes, the server needs a small map, and there just aren't very many decent ones out there.

Turbine is winnable with a reasonable amount of teamwork. The problem I always see is that once one team manages to take the middle, they don't push into the low tunnel any further with engies and ubers.

2fort is also tough to win, because six of the classes only have one path to get to the intel (the ramp outside, next to spawn), and it's usually heavily guarded with sentries. Soldiers and demos have two more attack routes, however, and they're not usually guarded nearly as well. A scout with Bonk can usually also get to the intel via the balcony, and provided that there isn't anything in the basement, he has a chance to make it out with a little help from a soldier or demo covering the top of the long spiral ramp (from within the room with the grated hole). There are all sorts of viable strategies that I rarely see put into play. As for snipers-- they can be mostly avoided by exiting from the ground floor or avoided entirely by taking the long way through the sewers.

Winning strategies aside, if I find myself on a team that just doesn't gel enough to make winning even a remote possibility, then I just retreat to the mindset of, "well, let's just have fun with a deathmatch-style game then." Playing to win and playing to have fun are not necessarily mutually inclusive, even though I most often find that playing to win is the most fun for me. But when winning isn't possible, I still have fun by redefining the objective.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I really doubt that our ctf maps are going to disappear though, so instead of arguing against their inclusion entirely, you might make more progress arguing in favor of a time change or a rule change (slightly increased crit rate on ctf maps to break stalemates, for instance... which I wouldn't necessarily be in favor of-- I'm just throwing out the first example that came to mind).

I generally like Turbine in a 'Deathmatch' kind of way - but other than that, 2Fort especially - i find it a exercise in tedium. I'd rather not play most of them - i've noticed Mach4 getting played a lot on the server recently, where i haven't seen Well or Badlands or Steel played at all.

Maybe I just have really bad timing.

I would enjoy those maps more with a spawn timer. As is they can get really tedious.

While I don't care for 2Fort I do like other CTF maps, especially Mach 4. One solution that would help, and I know this has been discussed and dismissed, is to limit the number of Engineers to 3.

They are played but they are near the begining of the rotation I believe. I'm not a big fan of CTF but I don't mind playing it, I'll most of the time not even go for the intel but just kill everything that gets in the way. I'll help push but I rather have someone else pick it up other then me. When I'm on I'll always change it to something else if enough people don't want it.

As for a spawn time we are at about 4 sec as it is I believe I'll have to check but we have it so you can see the kill cam, so it isn't a true instant spawn. Also about the engineer cap its just not going to happen, there are many ways to get around them and as of late I haven't seen as many engineers on ctf maps but I've seen more on CP or PL maps.

LONG LIVE CTF!!!
for those who know me, how can you not see this coming?

these maps are usually the most balanced with more routes. more routes means more ways to get behind people or meet them in a 1v1 or 1v2 format. granted we only place a couple of basic stock ones so most people haven't seen its true glorious form. seeing it requires a non-32-insta-fuckfest server. so it basically turns into a deathmatch on our server. which i still love and can't get enough of.

what crypto says is dead on the money. its the server settings not the maps. i can say the same thing about egpyt or goldrush. both are decent and fun maps on standard servers but suck my left nut on the eXo server. don't kill a game type just because it sucks on our server, adapt and enjoy. i hate pl because it forces me to be in the middle of the fray but i've learned to adapt and even enjoy playing support classes now.

karina - the server is still an insta-spawn server even though 4 secs for the kill cam is still there. that time isn't considered spawn time by valve and can only be lowered by a special sourcemod. valve's own spawn cvars at 0 still have a true respawn of 3-5 secs. i am curious to see what the server would be like with a respawn timer of 5 secs set in the wave format. fast respawn servers even out the stalemate a bit, not by a ton but enough to consistently get to 2nd or 3rd stages of maps.

ps class limits aren't a pub friendly idea (especially on a 32 server)

the only CTF map that i have any problems with is double cross. i can't stand it on a instant spawn server, mainly because of the constant raining of gun fire that makes me fight in the shade (and it also sends my computer's fps down the tubes).

but server setting do change how each map is played. take KoTH maps, instant spawn makes it a death match while a longer spawn time forces you to make less risky choices.

personally i find that it depends on how i'm feeling. i love the conversations and the people in a 32 instant spawn server where the games are more casual. but after time 40 min. game can feel a bit stale with 6 engis on both sides and no teamwork is being used; CTF maps tend to suffer from this the most. though this is expected when you have 32 random people working together. on the flip side when your working with 5 people the game becomes more tactical and serious business (well as serious as a game can get). but more regulation on classes, crits, all chat is usually removed taking a lot from the the fun a fun server has.

so to keep the server from becoming stale setting would have to be changed. i would like a class cap but shoot_me is right, it would be a major turn off. also the increased crits aren't personal liked (i tend to get hit by ever random crit the opposite team can throw out), but i like the idea of change the rules on CTF maps themselves.

i was thinking of shortening the time to make the game feel more urgent. hopefully the rushed feeling will make people attempt to get the flag more than turtle. maybe cutting the rounds down a bit or adding a sudden death if it goes on to long to end a round, but with still having an enjoyable time. also the server can have the team kill pre match time a bit longer.